We have recorded more than 81 thousand military crimes. But this is just the tip of the iceberg – Nobel laureate Matviychuk

Oleksandra Matviychuk is one of the most influential women Ukraine and the world.

For 11 years in a row together with “Center for Civil Liberties” It collects and documents the testimonies of Ukrainians about Russian military crimes and asserts their rights at the world sites.

In 2022, the CHS headed by Matviychuk received Nobel Peace Prize. Ukraine has such a distinction for the first time in its history.

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“After that, we were opened with doors that were previously closed. Earlier, Ukrainian human rights activists were invited only to specific sites where there were speeches but did not make a decision. Now we can be present at closed meetings, where something is being decided,” Alexander explains.

Sometimes she is the only Ukrainian at such events. And, as she confesses, it is a big responsibility for her.

“But I don’t feel weak. I feel like millions of people fighting. And this is a very strong position,” the human rights activist said.

Does it make sense to fight for the rights of people in the world where the system of law has proven to be inanimate? When should courts take place over the Russian military-political leadership: now or after victory? But how did Trump come to the White House affect international justice and advocate the issue of assisting Ukraine in the world?

All this “Ukrainian Truth” talked with Alexandra Matviychuk. Below is a short version of the conversation. See full interview on YouTube “UP”.

“I have not felt for a long time what is when you’re bored” – 2025 began in the mode of great political turbulence. Is it difficult for you to conduct international lawying campaigns in such circumstances in such circumstances?

– Of course, it’s not easy. Unfortunately, human dimension is not a priority at all.

See what we have heard of recently: natural resources, territorial concessions, even costumes discussed, but did not talk about people.

So we started the People First campaign to return the human dimension to all political processes. We have to talk about 20,000 deported children, people in occupation, thousands of illegally imprisoned civilians and prisoners of war, who are kept every day in inhumane conditions that are not provided with torture.

– What are the specific difficulties of human rights activists after changing the leadership in the White House?

– There is an attack on international justice. America has imposed sanctions against the International Criminal Court. Now this is not due to Ukraine, but with the arrest warrant that the ISS has issued against the Israeli leadership and the top of Hamas.

But it is a blow, because these sanctions, especially if they grow, will ask the ability of the International Criminal Court as an institution to investigate not only the Gaza sector, but also in Ukraine, Sudan and others for whom this court – in fact, the court of the last hope, because they have no other hope for justice.

And I would say it is not a question of America, it’s a global trend. There is a destruction of the international peace and justice system. This system was not perfect, coped with global challenges, but it was based on the UN Charter and International Law, which was based on human rights and freedoms. Even the largest cannibals in the UN General Assembly, were forced to pretend that human rights and freedoms were an important thing. Yes, they returned to their countries and did horrible things, but they were forced to look.

Now there is no need to put something. Now who is strong, he is right.

– Is it more difficult to communicate with US congressmen now at the level of personal ties, including the Republicans?

– I’ll look at it when I get back to America.

I spent a lot of time in Washington for the last half of a year. In principle, both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party have people who understand that we are fighting not only for ourselves, but for freedom that has no national borders, and that only the spread of freedom makes our world safer. That is why in the pragmatic interests of America to protect freedom and support the people who fight for it. Such people are in both parties.

– Did you have the opportunity to communicate with Donald Trump representative for Ukraine Kellog? How does he respond to the questions of military malice?

– I met him several times, with him and with other people who are close to this track. Let’s say so, there is an understanding of the situation. The question is what decision will eventually be made.

– When you talk about human rights and their protection, you can hear the thesis: “It’s boring and no one is interesting.” Does it insult you?

– No, I do not offend, do not surprise and do not get out of balance.

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– Why did people have such an idea of ​​human rights protection?

– Because they probably think that human rights and their protection are simply defending the abstract norms of conventions, declarations, that it is exclusively legal work.

But we stand on the shoulders of our predecessors – dissidents who were the round of the origins of the Ukrainian human rights movement. And there are not many lawyers among them. There were both military, philologists, physicists, mathematicians, and philosophers …

That is, human rights protection is more about calling. In order to protect human rights in conditions where the right does not work, it is necessary to have a lot of related knowledge from different fields, to be creative.

And, unfortunately, it is definitely not boring. It is very grueling. Although I don’t complain. But I want it to be boring, predictable. I dream of more peaceful times for us all, because I have not felt for a long time what it is when you are bored.

“Empathy I considered my vulnerability is actually a source of my enormous power” – “When the strength ends, the character begins” – this phrase is one of the landmarks in your life. What is more in your current activity: strength or character?

– I think one and the other. You understand: what you do and what you work on can not show results now, because they will be noticeable much later. But you still do it, because you can’t differently. You do, because you have dignity and understanding that all our efforts now make sense.

– Human rights protection is a psychologically complex profession. Especially in the conditions of war, when the international system of law does not work and there are so much pain and suffering around.

You once said that it is a great empeat and miss all stories through yourself. How often do you now catch yourself in the thought of burning?

– This is a difficult question. Regardless of the level of empathicity, very difficult to Quomplete war crimes for 11 years in a row. Because what we encountered-beyond the boundary not only of law, but also beyond the limit of any morality and basic ideas about humanity.

I also decided to a law student at the Faculty of Law: since I am empathic and love people, I never, I will never do anything in my life that is related to criminal law.

Now you can laugh. For in February 2014 we (“Center for Civil Liberties” – UP) became the first human rights organization to send mobile groups to the Crimea, as well as Lugansk and Donetsk region.

Since then, I have immersed my head into documenting people’s testimony. Hundreds personally interviewed them. They told how they were beaten, how they raped, how they were cut off the limbs, conducted a current through the genitals … It’s all very difficult.

But what did I understand? The empathy I considered my vulnerability is actually the source of my enormous power. Because when I tell the details of the cases that I and my colleagues work on, pragmatic and removed people can’t even listen. Both men and women.

It is very difficult to be near pain. It is a substance that begins to burn you from the inside.

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– Do you feel tired and do you want to stop and at least take a pause for a short period?

– moments, when I told myself, “I can’t anymore,” I didn’t have. But I constantly feel fatigue. I am of those people who were tired before the full -scale invasion.

On the other hand, it is a sin to complain, because my fatigue does not go into any comparison with my colleagues’ fatigue, who have joined the Armed Forces. I sleep in bed, not in the trench. Therefore, everything is very relative.

“We must make justice independent of the end of the war” – Your empathy we have already mentioned is felt in your speech. But for many years, you have actually been forced to repeat the world with the same things.

Didn’t you get tired of doing it? And why aren’t you heard: no desire or maybe your messengers are not strong enough?

– The problem is not with the messages. But I myself reflexes, because at some point I began to feel that I was talking the same one hundred or a thousand times in the same words.

On the other hand, the Bible says the same things for thousands of years. Therefore, it is necessary to gain patience and continue your work.

– Is there a point in combating the rights of people in the world where the system of law has proven to be innocent?

– Of course, there. The law system is only one of the mechanisms that protects the space of freedom. Yes, she doesn’t work now but I hope it is temporary. The space of freedom should be protected in any case.

– On the other hand, we see that despite the huge range of tools that allow you to record military crimes, sentences or even proceedings against their performers. Why?

– Because the law system does not develop as fast as the latest technologies. Moreover, there is a right, there is a policy, and there is a huge gap between them. That is why even the mechanisms that we now have do not work.

But we still need to collect this evidence, because war crimes do not have a statute of limitations. And if today we do not have the opportunity to punish their performers, then tomorrow, when this opportunity will appear, we will bring to international courts our tears, but documented testimony.

This is important not only from the point of view of law, but also in terms of communicative memory of society. More than three years ago, Russia said that everything we saw in Bucha was a production. And if time passes, can you imagine what she will say?

Communicative memory lives only three generations, and then there are only the meanings that we have managed to document and tell.

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– There are two opposite thoughts in the context of Russia’s punishment for war crimes. Some say it should be done in the moment, just now, others – that it is worth doing after the war, and cite an example Nuremberg Tribunal.

Focusing on this historical lawsuit is harming us in this discussion?

– If we look at this from the perspective that Nazi Germany, a powerful country that seized part of the world, still collapsed, fell, and its military criminals who considered themselves intact, found themselves in court and suffered punishment, then it is important.

But if you look at this from the perspective, as it should be implemented, then we inevitably go into the paradigm very wrong, to me. The paradigm that “justice belongs only to the winners and is their privilege” that “if you won in the war, then only then will you have a Nuremberg tribunal.” It seems to me that such theses are completely wrong.

Moreover, they remove from our generation the responsibility that is entrusted to us. In the last century, the Nuremberg Tribunal was a breakthrough in the affirmation of law and justice.

Our breakthrough should be to make justice independent of the end of the war and the conditions on which it will happen.

“The arrest of the Philippine Expature – Putin’s bell. He doesn’t feel safe” – Let’s model the situation. Russia says: “We are ready to complete the war, but there is a condition. We are against one of our higher military-political leadership through international courts.” Is it worth agreeing to Ukraine?

– I can not say what our higher heads of the state will do.

But I can give an example – Russia’s efforts to dispose of the central case of the Maidan about the execution of peaceful protesters. Russia was ready to give Ukraine 76 people from the occupied territories, including Donetsk journalist Stanislav Aseev, but instead demanded 5 Berkuts. She wanted to pick them up to stop the process and break the matter, because everything was already going to the sentence.

I remember all this very well, because we worked with those Ukrainians who were waiting for our relatives from captivity and those who lost our relatives during the shootings on the Maidan. And they had dramatically different interests.

Some said, “No, in no case do not give the Berkuts, do not break the case. Our relatives have died. We have the right to justice.” Others said, “Please do anything so that our relatives come back, because every day of being held captive is flour.” And, to be honest, I would never want to be in the place of a person who has to make a final decision in this situation.

Also read: “Eight years in my apartment shots were heard.” The story of one of the main lawsuits of the country

I do not know what the conditions of current negotiations can be, how peaceful they will be, and their results are stable, but I know for sure that it does not cancel the track of justice. M The International Criminal Court will not close the proceedings, will not call back the arrest warrant (Putin – UP).

Authoritarian regimes fall and their leaders are in court. We have examples. The most striking in our world is the example of Serbia, which did not want to give an expression of Slobodan Miloshevich in Hague, but she was forced to do it. Literally, the former President of Philippines Rodrigo Duttert was found in the ISS.

These are Putin bells. He does not feel safe.

– Do you see signs that Russia and its representatives are somehow trying to work with the world elites now to achieve at least soften potential punishment for themselves?

– They are generally convinced that they should not be punished. The same question of their imperial culture, which is based on a long tradition of impunity: you can kill people, destroy their identity, because “what is punishment here? This is our right!”

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– Why tops representatives Soviet repressive system Haven’t been punished for their actions?

– I can refer to the words of Russian dissidents. They told me that in the 90s in their circles there was a discussion “Is there a historical courts over Stalinism and his crimes?” But they said, “And it was so clear to everyone that Stalin is a monster. Why say the obvious things? Let us invest our time and effort in reform, building a better future.”

And when they shared these memories with me, they said, “We were wrong. It also had to invest time and effort. Because now Stalin is no longer a monster, but a” effective manager “, which is put in Russia.”

– That is, the moment when Soviet evil could be punished?

– Yes, the historical moment when such a lawsuit would be possible. The fact that Stalin did not live up to that time did not mean that this court was unnecessary.

“Occupation does not reduce human suffering, it just makes them invisible” – You find yourself in a very interesting situation where as a head of a human rights organization that received the Nobel Prize of Peace, you call the event To give Ukraine weapons. How do people respond to your words?

– The first year ended when I came to a country, and there were articles with headings: “Shock! Sensation! Nobel laureate of peace asks for weapons!”.

Yes, I’m a human rights activist who has been using the right to protect people and their freedoms for many years, but now the right is not working! Let’s do an experiment: you will take the Geneva conventions, go to the Russian tank and wave them before its muzzle. Do you think a Russian tank will stop or not?

People who do not have our experiences have some things to just be patient. For example, they need to explain that peace does not come when the country they attacked is weapons. Then it will not be peace, but occupation.

And occupation is not “the same war, just in a different form.” Because some people think so. They say “occupation at least reduces human suffering.” No, occupation does not reduce human suffering, it simply makes them invisible. Moreover, for many people, occupation is not the end of their suffering, but only the beginning.

– Do you and your colleagues get testimonials about war crimes from people who are now under occupation?

– Of course. We combined an effort when a full -scale invasion began: we built a national network of documents and covered it with the whole country, including the occupied territories.

Now in our base there are more than 81 thousand war crimes, but it is only the tip of the iceberg. We cannot track every individual case, but we see trends.

– What do these trends talk about?

-First, Russia tries to change the demographic composition of the population in these territories. It introduces people from different regions of Russia. Former Hebists, Judges, the military are already inhabited in the annexed Crimea. This is, in fact, colonization.

Secondly, 1 million 600 thousand children in the occupied territories are now undergoing identity destruction policies because they are more flexible to Russification. Russia is educated in them complete obedience so that they do what they say. In fact, it consumes 1 million 600 thousand Ukrainian children authoritarian firmware.

Third, the terror that the Russians arranged in the occupied territories are so irrational that people do not understand how to behave in order to avoid this violence. Our questionnaires have the question: “What did you get on the basement?” And people say, “We do not know. Apparently, we just crossed the road not in that place or at that time.”

– Have Russian repression in the annexed Crimea intensified after 2022? Did they become more cruel to the Crimean Tatars?

– I would say that the Russians as a whole stopped masking their war crimes. Previously, they at least somehow tried to sew something. For example, they were given Igor Kozlovsky to keep this grenade to get fingerprints. And now no one is frozen.

This Stalin’s phrase: “It would be a person, and the article will be found” – it’s about present realities.

Sofia Wednesday, UP