“Logo text [This story contains major spoilers from the Shrinking season two finale, “The Last Thanksgiving.“] Shrinking co-creator Bill Lawrence has come a long way since thinking Brett Goldstein wasn’t the right actor to play the pivotal role of Louis in the Emmy-nominated show’s second season. While speaking with The Hollywood Reporter at the start”, — write: www.hollywoodreporter.com
[This story contains major spoilers from the Shrinking season two finale, “The Last Thanksgiving.“]
Shrinking co-creator Bill Lawrence has come a long way since thinking Brett Goldstein wasn’t the right actor to play the pivotal role of Louis in the Emmy-nominated show’s second season.
While speaking with The Hollywood Reporter at the start of season two, the showrunner explained that he saw Goldstein as Ted Lasso‘s Roy Kent and couldn’t picture him playing a more sensitive, sweet character, like Louis.
“This show would only work if you could have somebody that did awful things and yet still want it to work out for them anyway,” Lawrence said of the character. “So, I almost blew it. He would never be so forward as to ask, and Jason Segel made it happen.”
Now, looking back at the season as a whole, Lawrence doesn’t think it would have worked without the actor as Louis this season.
Episode eight, “Last Drink,” gave audiences their first (and only) glimpse at Louis’ life before the accident, and how Jimmy (Jason Segel) and Alice (Lukita Maxwell) weren’t the only ones whose lives were ruined by it.
“That probably confused some people who wanted to hate Louis,” Lawrence now tells THR, speaking about the finale. “Brett is so good. This show wouldn’t have worked this year had Brett Goldstein not been able to do moments, like when you see him kick Meredith Hagner [who played his girlfriend-then-fiancée, Sarah] out and how much he’s suffering. If that had not felt completely authentic and hadn’t crushed you, I don’t think the season would have worked.”
The final moments of season two put Goldstein’s dramatic acting to the test even further when his character, still holding on to so much grief and heartbreak over the accident, is steps away from jumping in front of a train. But Jimmy shows up and does what Alice has been asking him to since she forgave Louis in episode six: talk to him.
“We really wanted to drive home the point in a hopeful and optimistic show, especially where we’re all at in our own lives right now, the power of forgiveness,” the co-creator shares. “If the season’s about forgiveness, that the simple act of doing it can save you. It can save someone else. It can save relationships. It’s viral by its nature. If it goes from one person, it goes to another.”
Below, the co-creator also opens up about the thought process behind not showing the car accident that killed Tia (Lilan Bowden); how Jimmy’s real journey with forgiveness wasn’t actually with Louis but with himself; if he’d be open to Cobie Smulders returning; where Paul’s (Harrison Ford) progressing Parkinson’s disease will take him in the already renewed season three; and more.
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When we spoke earlier this season, you had teased that Liz (Christa Miller, who is married in real life to Lawrence) would cheat on Derek (Ted McGinley). Why did you decide to incorporate that into the storyline this season?
Not to be nerdy, but we were talking about the first year is about grief, and the second year is about forgiveness, right? And when we say it’s about forgiveness, everybody goes, “Oh, it’s about Jimmy forgiving this drunk driver.” It’s not. It’s about Jimmy forgiving himself, and it’s about every character. You can go through every character having to have a forgiveness thing. I wanted to make sure that we did something that poignant for Liz’s character as well, because my wife’s a rock star and a good dramatic actress, and so we knew we wanted to subtly set up the fact that she was kind of losing control of who she was and where she was in the world. I’m going through that in real life sometimes at my age when your kids leave and stuff, and we knew it was a direct line to a pretty significant forgiveness arc for those two characters. It’s also a great way to give Ted McGinley some meaty stuff because that guy earned it this year. He’s so good.
From what I’ve seen online, people are happy he was upped to a series regular for this season. They’ve loved seeing more of Derek. There are several ways he could have reacted to Liz’s news, but he kind of fell somewhere in the middle. He was upset. He took his space, but he also forgave her fairly quickly when he realized that he wasn’t there for her the way that he should have been.
I love stories that are not going to make everybody happy. We’re TV fans, too, all the writers on this show. There’s plenty of people going, “I can’t believe anybody would ever forgive the person who killed their mom or their wife,” and sometimes I can’t either. But once you type it up on the internet, there’s 9,000 stories, some heartwarming, some unbelievable. We told everybody that it was connected to a real one, and it was. I dealt with a kid who was drunk driving and killed another kid, and the parents — without saying names — embraced that kid. They didn’t want two lives to be ruined. So you’re like, “Oh, it’s out there.” And what an interesting challenge to hopefully make people think about whether or not they could ever find that in their heart.
If I were doing a show just about Derek and Liz’s marriage, which is oddly akin to my marriage, I would go, “It’s no accident that they have been married without blips for — if you do the math — almost 27 years because of their kids’ ages.” She was having an awful time, and she had a horrible weak moment.” You saw all of it. You literally saw kind of an emotional transgression and one kiss and an immediate admission. I would say just as many people that went, “Derek shouldn’t forgive her that quickly.” If you had Derek not forgive her — those are the stories I like — and I was a fan of the show, I would write, “what the fuck? They’ve been married for 27 years, and he ignored her, and she did a kiss and came and admit it, and he’s just throwing it away?” So that’s why those things are fun because they aren’t neat and tight.
Christa Miller as Liz and Ted McGinley as Derek in Shrinking season two. Courtesy of Apple TV+
In episode eight, we get the first look at Louis’ life before the accident. How did you decide what his life would be like before that happened?
It was huge. We use, in the writers room, the word manipulative as a good word because I think it’s mean if you’re doing it to friends and family. But as a writer, you want to elicit empathy or tears or laughter. You know, it’s a good word. We knew a very manipulative thing to do in that flashback episode was to show that Louis and Jimmy through intercutting and their own past stories were essentially the same people that got their lives ruined by the same accident. So I think that probably confused some people that wanted to hate Louis. That’s why I had to say — I hate saying it because it makes me mad — Brett is so good. It’s been out there that I didn’t want to cast him as Louis, and Jason fought for him. This show wouldn’t have worked this year had Brett Goldstein not been able to do moments, like when you see him kick Meredith Hagner out and how much he’s suffering. If that had not felt completely authentic and hadn’t crushed you, I don’t think the season would have worked.
In that episode, we see the events surrounding the accident but not the accident itself. What was the thought process behind that?
It was, without a doubt, twofold. We didn’t want people to leave Louis as a villain, and I think it’s hard if you had that visceral moment of seeing it happen. I would have, as a viewer, been like, “Oh, fuck that guy!” I mean, it’s the same reason it was intentional that we called him a drunk driver, and because everybody goes like, “Some guy got really fucking drunk and whatever.” And then we knew when we showed it, he was gonna have two drinks and not even have finished his third, which, by the way, warning to everybody, if you’re Brett Goldstein and you’re 5’10” and you weigh a buck something, and you have two liquor drinks and a half of a third one, and you get in an accident, you’re fucked. So it’s a good public service announcement because a lot of people are like, “He wouldn’t be!” I’m like, “I got news for you: He would be.” And so I think we just wanted to make it not so easy for people to dislike him.
It also looked like he was drinking Old Fashioneds, and those things are strong.
Look at you! We nerded out in the writers room. We’re literally like, “Nope. Can’t be wine.” “It can’t be whatever.” “It also can’t be something that looks like a daiquiri.” It has to look like that dude is on his third Old Fashioned or his third Bourbon and Coke, and you’re like, “Oh, shit. Are they doubles? What are they?”
In that same episode, we also see Paul (Harrison Ford) choose Jimmy to be the person he wants to have his last drink with. Why Jimmy?
Paul, we always play him as slightly omniscient, and he knows what’s coming. Because when Jimmy says, “Do you ever think I’m going to be able to forgive myself?” And Paul says, “Yeah.” And Jimmy says, “Really?” And Paul says, “I hope so,” but he doesn’t say it confidently. He says it emotionally. So I think it’s because we’re trying to imply that Paul’s character is still very worried about how this is going to end for his younger friend.
Jason Segel as Jimmy and Harrison Ford as Paul in Shrinking season two. Courtesy of Apple TV+
It was so interesting to see that’s where Jimmy’s forgiveness storyline went. It wasn’t so much Louis, though, that was definitely a part of it. It was his and Alice’s relationship. Was that always where you wanted to take his storyline?
The biggest plan — the trick of forgiveness — was you think it’s about forgiving this other guy because, to be honest, one of the things that we argued back and forth was whether or not Jimmy was ever going to forgive Louis. But we knew that what the story was really about — and we knew this even the first year — was, “How can you forgive yourself for when the one thing you said to your wife is that you’re not going to fuck up the best thing you ever did, which is this kid, and you absolutely shit the bed on being a dad?” That’s why we showed it. It’s why we showed it again. So we always knew we were going to do that. I forget who pitched — it’s such a talented writers room — someone had pitched the whole thing of, in our heads, we always think, if something bad happens, when you have dreams or fantasy or whatever, that you’re going to be the hero and rise to the occasion. But you don’t always do that.
It was so interesting to see Brian (Michael Urie) develop a friendship with Louis before anybody else. Why did you want him to be the first one to forgive him?
The interesting thing for us was less about forgiveness for Brian. I enjoy the massive comedy of narcissism, and Michael Urie’s amazing at playing it. And if you wanted to know what a line that we had early on that summed up his character, it was, “Narcissism is having the courage to put yourself first.” And Jimmy’s like, “That’s not what narcissism is.” And so, if we were doing a story about this guy eventually, who always, deep down, wanted a kid but didn’t think, because of his narcissism and who he is, that he would be good at this. We wanted to do a story that was so clear that he had the ability to put someone else above himself and above his own feelings. And so it was really important that he saw this guy, that he was really suffering. And also it was a great excuse for Michael Urie to do that speech two and a half times. We had to do the Paley Center last night, and someone asked him, could you still do it? And they gave him the queue line. He just started doing it again. It just fucking kills me.
The second time I heard it, I was like, “Wait, I’ve heard this before.”
The Easter egg, just so you know, is the only joke that was changed. In the first version, he imagined his baby would be Bernadette Peters if it was a girl, or Peter Bernadette if it was a boy. Michael is currently starring on Broadway — it’s now moved to L.A. — in Once Upon a Mattress with Sutton Foster. So, in the second version, it was Sutton Foster if it’s a girl, or Foster Sutton if it’s a boy, but we knew that was the only thing that would change.
Brett Goldstein and Lukita Maxwell in Shrinking. Apple TV+
So through his forgiveness of Louis, we also see Brian encourage Alice to speak to him, leading to her eventually reading him his letter and ultimately forgiving him, because that’s what Tia would do. How did you decide how she would go about forgiving him?
It was a Brett Goldstein pitch because he thought it would be really cool — I think he wrote that one; I could be wrong — he thought it’d be really cool if she went there needing to continue to be mad at him and want him to get the fuck out of her family’s life. But he asks her questions, and because of him, she remembers something about her mom that she had forgotten. I don’t know if you remember, the first year we did a thing of how she was starting to forget her mom’s laugh and forget different things, and that’s such a gift from this guy. She forgave him because it crystallized her that’s who her mom was, probably overly forgiving always. So just kind of a cool journey. One of the things we try to do on this show, whether it works or not, is set up the things that happen even in previous seasons, much less previous episodes.
The scene where Jimmy sees Brian, Louis and Alice eating at that restaurant was heart-wrenching. How did you all decide that’s how you wanted him to find out that Alice was in communication and had even been hanging out with Louis in a friendly way?
Well, here’s what we knew. We wanted to go back and show everybody’s lives before the accident, and the best way to do it was literally right after the moment that he sees that guy is still in his life and around his family. And so that was the trick of it. We almost biffed one thing, and I’ll tell you, because you probably didn’t even notice, right? Everybody’s like, “Oh, it’s such a random coincidence that Jimmy is outside the restaurant where they all happen to be after he drops that guy off.” It’s not. I just wish we’d shot it a little clearer. That’s the restaurant that they had breakfast at that morning, him and that Dan guy. It’s just we shot it in an angle. In the morning, when he was there with that patient and eating pancakes at a table, that table is just a little to the left, and he’s like, “Let’s go.” They went together in their car to the next place to the next place, and he’s dropping him off at the same restaurant we started that. Sometimes, I can always see and hear things that make me insane and bother me forever. It bothers me forever that it was not crystal clear it was the same restaurant.
In episode 10, you had a How I Met Your Mother reunion with Cobie Smulders. She said that you all approached her for it. How did you decide on her being the actress to play Sofi?
Well, here’s the coolest thing. I told you the third year is about moving forward, and we always, kind of, put Easter eggs about what the next year is about the previous [one]. So we knew as writers from a starting place, we go, “Man, for the 10th episode, just to show people where Jimmy is, let’s present a personification of the ultimate version of what he should be doing moving forward with his life, like the perfect girl for him.” And if you’re only going to do one scene and do the perfect girl, you have to do that thing, which is find immediate chemistry. In Shrinking terms, because we’re at a cool place right now, we’re able to cast really cool people. People actually, in a great way, are interested in being on the show. We’re very grateful. So, instead of auditioning and hunting, we get to sit around and go, “Who would it be cool to do with?” Not only does Jason have a great rapport with Cobie, and she’s a great actress doing romantic comedy, I love, as long as times past, revisiting dynamics like that. We as a writing staff love the challenge of going, “Let’s write a scene that people don’t right away go, ‘Oh, that’s How I Met Your Mother.’” I watched the scene, and I was a How I Met Your Mother fan, and even though it was cool that it was her, I was lost in watching the two of them have crazy chemistry and wishing that he would answer her text later.
I’m going to tell you something embarrassing. I was also a How I Met Your Mother fan, and I didn’t even make that connection in my head. My brain wasn’t like, “They’ve been onscreen together before.” It was like, “This is two actors I know and love, and look at them being together.” My brain didn’t even go there.
That’s awesome. You just made me happy. If you can pull that off, and it works on two levels, how cool is that, man? It was just really neat. The passage of time helps and how talented they are helps.
Cobie Smulders and Jason Segel in Shrinking season two. Apple TV+
Not much came of Jimmy and Sofi, besides a really nice moment for them, but there is clearly a connection there, like you said. Could we potentially see her again?
(Laughs) It’s a good idea.
I spoke to her. She said she’d be down.
I read that interview. That’s a good idea. Without a doubt. Our fingers being crossed. The only bummer of working with people that great is they often have lots of jobs. Lily Rabe, who plays Harrison’s daughter, is definitely in the show in the third year, and she’s starting a Broadway play right when we start shooting. So, we’ll work it all out, but yeah. Our intent was that the representation of what moving forward looks like for Jimmy would be back.
What does that mean for people who are shipping Jimmy and Gaby (Jessica Williams)?
I’m not saying it’ll work, it’ll not work. I like things where not everybody’s going to be happy and people aren’t sure where it’s going to go. So, the same thing with are people mad at Jimmy? Why would anybody be nice to the person that killed whatever? I like that because it’s a challenge. So I think it’s cool that it’s not so cut and dry and people don’t know where it’s gonna end up. But I think it’s even more complicated that people are like, “Oh, fuck. I like Damon Wayans, and I like what he does for her character.” I think that’s the fun, confusing of it all.
There was just so much growth from every character this season. With Sean (Luke Tennie) coming so far in his recovery, and Gaby trying to make strides and put herself first, instead of always worrying about caring for other people. What was it like exploring their arcs, and what can you say about what comes next for these two characters?
We’re therapied-up. We’re comedy writers, and we have great consultants on the show, and my favorite thing that was from a therapist’s mouth that we put in Jason Segel’s character’s mouth is when he’s talking to Michael Urie. He says, “What I worry about the most are people that are stuck. If you’re growing, there’s cause for optimism.” I generally write hopeful and optimistic shows, but I think we’ve really teed up the next year not to focus on Jason as he’s like I worry most about characters that are stuck. And I told you that next year is about moving forward, and he’s still a guy in this one that couldn’t answer a text from a girl that he should be out having coffee with. So, I’m optimistic but excited to see if the dude can end this kind of three-season story in a positive way.
Jason Segel and Jessica Williams in Shrinking season two. AppleTV+
Louis almost jumped in front of a train in the season finale. I was so stressed and so concerned about what it would do to Alice if he did it and he died. Talk to me about that decision of seeing him on the cusp and then having Jimmy finally come through for him.
I can tell you two things. One, we use manipulation in a good way on this show. With a friend or with whatever it’s a mean word, but with an audience, you’re trying to manipulate them to laugh or have expectations or feel tension. We knew how the first year ended, and people might have noticed that was very intentionally shot, similar to the first year of cutting from happiness to “Oh shit, is somebody gonna get pushed off of a cliff like the first year?” And in the writers room, we said, “how dark do we want to get?” And the decision we made is, I think we really wanted to drive home the point in a hopeful and optimistic show, especially where we’re all at in our own lives right now, the power of forgiveness. If the season’s about forgiveness, that the simple act of doing it can save you, it can save someone else. It can save relationships. It’s viral by its nature. If it goes from one person, it goes to another.
So we knew we didn’t want anything bad to happen to Louis, because we thought it would almost be trauma porn. But we did want to drive home that forgiving someone or yourself can at least start the path toward healing the most dire of circumstances and dire of things. The only thing that was an issue for the show is we knew, if we went that dark, that even if the show ends on a hopeful note, in a season that’s about moving forward in the third season that I would have to convince Brett, to see that character again and to know what’s going on and that he’s OK and having to annoyingly negotiate with my friend is not only business-wise, but for his time when I was not the one that hired him in the first place is, I think, karmically, just desserts.
By the end of the season, we see that Paul’s Parkinson’s is progressively getting worse and he’s not responding to treatment anymore. What can you tell us about where that may take us in season three?
You’re a really good viewer, because you’re hitting all the stuff that we talked about, and I’m a TV fan, and I watch TV like you watch TV. I’m sure you did your homework, and you know Brett and my connection to this, and we didn’t want to do it for three years because it’s hard to watch. It’s in our lives, but a very realistic portrayal of what Parkinson’s means — and when I say realistic, it doesn’t necessarily mean just devastating. My first mentor, Michael J. Fox, I find to be the most inspiring person that I’ve ever met and busier than I am somehow, which is just absolutely bananas. And so we knew that for this kind of three-season story, and we’re still hoping to tell another three-season story with this group, that we wanted to end with showing what that means, and having hopefully gotten Paul to a place in his life that if he’s going to navigate it, he’s going to navigate it not on an island but with the people around him, and so it’s gonna be a huge part of next year.
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Shrinking season two is now streaming on Apple TV+.