“On July 22, the conflict between the authorities and anti -corruption bodies – in particular, NABU and SAPs. The Verkhovna Rada quickly adopted a law number 12414, which, among other things, actually takes away key powers from anti -corruption. In an interview with UA.news a public figure, a well -known political blogger and entrepreneur Carl Volokh shared his view of what happened yesterday, about the difference between”, – WRITE ON: ua.news
July 22 was seriously aggravated conflict between the authorities and the anti -corruption bodies – in particular, NABU and SAP. The Verkhovna Rada quickly adopted a law number 12414, which, among other things, actually takes away key powers from anti -corruption.
In an interview with UA.news a public figure, a well -known political blogger and entrepreneur Carl Volokh He shared his view on what happened yesterday about the difference between the independence of investigative bodies and their return to the legal field, about the future of the former in the entire full -scale protest war, as well as the key problems of the anti -corruption industry as a whole.
More – in our material.
The first question you would like to ask is your overall assessment of the NABU situation. Briefly and clear: what happened around these organs in the last two days?
Carl Volokh: Two days ago, my friend called me and asked whose side we were, for whom we were cheering in this situation. I told him: we are cheering on both sides, we both wish you victory. This is, of course, a joke. But I absolutely do not support the actions of the authorities in the part of what they are going to make NABU dependent organization. It is absolutely one hundred percent, it is absolutely not suitable. On the other hand, I have been engaged in systemic problems in the work of anti -corruption vertical for over a year. I see very serious problems there and have a specific look at the work of these agencies. I think they need to be returned to the legal field, but in no way support the actions of the authorities to restrict NABU independence.
Is it not related to what is happening to NABU with resonant affairs about the environment of President Zelensky, the top officials of the government that have taken place recently?
Carl Volokh: And so, and no. There are several factors that have made this attack on NABU. The first factor to be considered absolutely decisive is the change of power in the United States. President Trump has much less interest in what is happening within Ukraine and in no way support the actions of his predecessors. I am not saying that there is no banal US Ambassador to Ukraine, it is also a super factor. But the main thing is that the main organization that supported the anti -corruption vertical – USAID – is currently practically not visible in Ukraine. Therefore, the State Department’s attention to this issue is also scanty.
People whose careers were once dependent on the success of the anti -corruption vertical in Ukraine, today are mostly or dismissed from work or went as the previous lady of the United States Bridget Brink. That is the main prerequisite. If it were not, of course, that the authorities would not dare to go to the frontal clash with the Americans who were strongly invested in the anti -corruption bodies of Ukraine. They have invested huge money, it is a billion. But since the situation has changed radically today, it has become possible an attack on NABU.
The reason is that the authorities do not suit that NABU, SAP and WAKS have remained almost the only ones who are not completely dependent on the bank. I say the word “practical” because the Supreme Court of Ukraine is still trying to resist the arbitrariness of power from time to time. If you take it by brackets, then only the anti -corruption vertical remains. NABU, SAP, WAKS were still organizations that tried somehow to pursue a more or less independent policy. And now this policy is being destroyed. When I say “more or less”, I must admit that the top officials of the authorities were very careful. In addition, the impact on all these institutions by grant anti -corruption organizations, especially the CPC, was completely illegal and not commensurate.
In this context, what will be the future of these organs after everything that happened?
Carl Volokh: I would not make predictions because a number of factors remain unknown to us. The first is the further reaction of society. In addition, the further reaction of the European Union is completely unknown today. So far, she is easy. By the way, the Presidential Office should be paid here. They calculated very well that the EU cannot today when it requires and explains its population why it is necessary to support Ukraine – it cannot start punishing Kiev, which fights Russian fascism and Russian aggression. Also, the United States as of today has in no way spoke about it. That is, we do not know that it will be tomorrow, that, relatively speaking, tomorrow will bring the same cat Kellogg into Trump’s ears. He may well come and bring to the president that are happening certain things … I do not predict anything. I think in this case you need to sit, think and look.
Yesterday, the head of the Security Service of Ukraine, Mr. Vasyl Malyuk, said that the law on NABU was actually returning the bureau to the constitutional framework. How would you comment on what you think about it?
Carl Volokh: Nothing of the kind. That is, if someone needs to be returned to the constitutional framework, then these are other law enforcement agencies, especially their investigations. This is the Ministry of Internal Affairs, specifically the National Police, and especially the DBR.
By the way, few people noticed, but yesterday there was another, no less important event, very, very disturbing. Yesterday they legalized searches without a court order. This is a very bad thing. In recent months, seeing what mass phenomenon the DBR searches have become without court order, I thought to myself: I wonder what they were going to do next? Here is the head of the DBR Mr Sukhachev: Where will he run when the power changes? Such searches are a direct violation of the law.
How? This is a direct criminal liability – to order to do such things. By the way, I have to say that the assistants, just on a much smaller scale, have applied this practice. They also sometimes came to searches without a court order. Although the CCP clearly and 100 % when such things are possible. Just one hundred percent. That is, if a law enforcement officer knows that at this moment, relatively speaking, a murder, rape or other such a crime, which must be stopped immediately, is at the door – then he has the right to break into and stop the crime. But that’s all. And here they invented that if the law enforcement officer knows that at this point the destruction of material evidence may occur, then he also has the right to break without any court order. And then everything is simple. The courty court legitimizes these actions.
Yesterday we saw almost the first protest actions during the Great War – an unprecedented event. In your opinion, do these protests have any potential, or will it all end up and have no continuation?
Carl Volokh: If I was there, if I talked to people, I would have had more reasons to make any predictions. And so – I don’t know. I saw that it was mostly young people, they are wonderful children. But we remember this protest The young from which the Maidan once began, also lasted not very long. If they were not beaten then, and adult citizens did not join the series of protesters – then they would have dispersed. By the way, the authorities now have a legitimate reason to apply force to protesters. There are martial restrictions in the country.
And we do not forget that such protests for the enemy are now the most advantageous, which can be in some way to destabilize the situation in Ukraine is a fact. Such complex factors … And it is impossible to put up with this arbitrariness of power, and it is not possible to put up either. Honestly, I don’t know. There are not many situations when I say that I have nothing to do. This is the situation now. I have no idea what to do here.
Your position is clear. Finally, I would like to ask the systemic problems of the anti -corruption industry that you do. What are the key problems? Can you name the main ones?
Carl Volokh: The biggest problem is the lack of judicial control. My deep conviction is that there is a “ment” (no matter what it is called: NABU detective or somehow). Their business is to rise cases, to bring them to court and sentences. They are proud of this, they receive rewards, receive rank, promote service and so on. But all this should be checked in court. If I saw that the judge looked at a absolutely worthless suspicion of a person and would say the detective and prosecutor of the SAP: you do not carry to me empty pieces of paper, but as you want suspicion – justify it not with your fantasies, but real facts. If such a court existed, I would have claims to NABU at least, because judicial control in this case would work. But it doesn’t work, unfortunately. Wax (High Anti -Corruption Court – Ed.) Feeling more part of the anti -corruption system than directly by the court. And this is a terrible story, a terrible problem, it’s an anti -constitutional.
The second feature: NABU, SAP and WAKS have transferred most of their activities to PR-planks, not into the plane of justice. And this is a trouble, because they prescribe people guilty at the stage when they still have a long distance before their guilt remains. It’s very bad. They merge reports about searches for their anti -corruption grant activists, and they publish it all. They already make a person guilty before his wine is proven. This is a bad story, a solid PR, and in this PR they use shameful methods.
And to take these incredible pledge that they are suspected! The CCP provides another. What it involves is less than one million hryvnias. More precisely, there is not so much in UAH, there are 300 tax minimums. But if you count in money, it will be about 900 thousand hryvnias. Today, we have 90% of VACSA resolutions, where the amounts are determined in 10, 100, 200, 300 times greater than those provided by the PDA. The main thing is that the law requires in such a situation to justify why these amounts. Why the Court considers that a smaller amount will not be able to discipline the person involved and so on. The pledge is not a way of punishment, and this is what they have forgotten. The pledge is a way to discipline the suspect so that he or she appears to the investigator’s challenges and does not counteract the proceedings. That’s all. There is no more goal in the pledge.
But in order to show how effective they are, how they are struggling with corruption, to show it to an average citizen who is not versed in the peculiarities of the law – they decide: let’s take 200 million hryvnias. By the way, please note: 200 million pledge will be stopped by a conditional suspect after being arrested on all property and all accounts first. And where should a person get these 200 million? The judge is not interested at all.
This is one example, and there are many such systemic problems. I say that the problem is that the anti -corruption authorities have gone beyond the legal field. They can simply spit on the law for PR and create the visibility of effective fight against corruption. They just tread by the law. And why I was engaged in this issue at all is the desire to return this actually uncontrolled system in the legal field. But I say again: trying to bring them into the legal field is one thing, and the destruction of their independence is quite another.